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Guitarmaker # 34 Ryan Jigs issue
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11099		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:10 am ]
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I need to borrow (or buy)Guitarmaker #34 issue featuring Kevin Ryan's jig article. It is apparently out of print. Please PM me if you can help. Thanks
Author:  peterm [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:27 am ]
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Would be interested too if anyone has or knows of a source.

Thanks
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:09 am ]
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Terry;
I have it !
I'll mail it to ya within a week if you send me an address.
Mke Collins
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:34 am ]
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I have a copy of this one too. Pretty neat fixtures provided you have a
enormous disc sander and some other large machines, but good ideas in it
none the less.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:37 am ]
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I also have it, if you need a copy of something specific. Let me know. Very cool jigs!
Tracy
Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:41 pm ]
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I'd love a copy of that article also...I'd be happy to pay for photocopying and mailing to get it.
Author:  peterm [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:54 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] I'd love a copy of that article also...I'd be happy to pay for photocopying and mailing to get it.[/QUOTE]

me too!
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:54 pm ]
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don't think photocopying it is exactly legal.... maybe I'm wrong.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:01 am ]
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John, I think it would be okay as long as you aren't selling the copies.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:13 am ]
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Ok, I've got 5 sets photo copied and ready to send. One is already spoken for, so that leaves 4 copies left.{edit Only 2 left!} First 4 to PM me wins a free copy of the jig article. It is 17 pages long.

I don't seen anything wrong with doing this. We are not taking any business away from GuitarMaker because it is out of stock. Had it been available, I would not offer this. I'm not making anything on it either, so this is just free information. Hope someone can get something out of it as I have.
Tracy
Author:  GregG [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:26 am ]
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PM sent

Thanks!
Greg
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:13 am ]
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Another PM sent.

Thanks Tracy! Oh yeah, let me know what I owe you for copy fees and postage and I can PayPal you.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:52 am ]
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Ok, that is my quota. No charge Dave, just a way a paying back all the goodness I receive from the OLF. Anyone else want a copy, you can contact someone else in the list above that will be getting a copy from me, or at the top of the list. I hope the people I send to will pay it forward and make the same offer I'm making.
Tracy
Author:  Bill Moll [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:31 am ]
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     You guys know, I hope, that ASIA sells back issues and there still copies of #34 available.

     I doubt that anyone in the organization will want to make a big deal out of this in terms of copywrites or intelectual property issues, but you don't have to be "selling" photocopies in order to be in violation of the law.

     That being said, the bigest problem that arrises from stuff like this is the disrespect you show toward the organization, and the author of the material - especially when you do it out here in a public forum for all to see. It sort of starts to feel like you're thumbing your collective noses at ASIA. And, it reflects on the policies of the OLF in general, that your moderators didn't consider that there might be a negative aspect to this, and ask that you refrain from it - or at least take this kind of thing to PM's, and keep it "under the table" so to speak. This hasn't been an entirely "one-time" occurance.

     Like I said, a couple of photocopies here or there isn't going to haul us all into the Supreme Court, but there are such concepts as "doing the right thing" and "having respect for others". We're all on the honor system here. Let's, please, take that precept to heart.

     Bill
Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:54 am ]
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Bill, let me be the first to say I'm sorry if we stepped on any toes. I simply took it from the first post in this thread that this issue was no longer available in the back order copies. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything to undermine the efforts of ASIA or to take away any proceeds that might have been made on the sale of these copies.

I will purchase a copy right away to make this good for ASIA as well. Again, no harm intended.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:07 am ]
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Bill, I just tried to order the issue we are talking about here and cannot find it on the ASIA website. It appears to only go back as far as issue 44. Maybe this is where the confusion happened.

Do we need to contact you directly to get a copy of anything that is not listed on the website?
Author:  Bill Moll [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:29 am ]
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Dave,

     First of all, no apologies are really necessary. This is in fact, by itself, a fairly small issue, but I thank you for offering them, and appreciate your support.

     The complete back issue list is always available on the last page of each magazine issue, and is updated with each printing to reflect those copies we no longer have in stock. We may not have a "ton" of #34's sill in boxes, but I know we still have a few.

     The back issue section of the website has been another one of those "volunteer" undertakings, and though a couple of people have gotten a start on it over the last year or so, no one has ever gotten the thing finished in a complete and cohesive manner.

     Recently however, I actually hired a tech to work with all of the old issues we have on disc, ripping them apart and re-formatting them, with the expressed intent of populating the site with each issue we've got electronic copies of. We'll have them for sale as "hard copy" magazines when still available, but also as .PDF downloads at a much lower price.

     This stuff takes time though, and a good deal of volunteer labor, so please hang in there with us - our progress has been slow but sure.

     Bill
Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:40 am ]
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Bill, thanks for taking the time to clarify this for all of us. I'm sure that time is something you have very little of with all you've got going on right now.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:58 am ]
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Bill,
Thanks for taking the time to clear that up. Being a member of ASIA, I do not want to step on anyone's toes, or do anything illegal. I thought that the issue was unavailable, and thought I was doing someone a good service. I haven't mailed or copied the items yet, and do not plan to based on your comments.

The people that have requested copies from me should buy the magazine through ASIA. Sorry again Bill. I do appreciate all you do for the organization.

Regards,
Tracy
Author:  microsmurf [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:07 am ]
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I think this falls into the gray area.


This could be fair use and not copyright infringement, but it all depends on the intent. Using it for the purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.


Also photocopying an artcle of the magazine (excerpt, and not the entire magazine) for a freind to share/comment is normally not considered copyright infringement. It could be even considered as fair use based on the Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Moral Majority, Inc. case.


Fair use. Publisher Larry Flynt made disparaging statements about the Reverend Jerry Falwell on one page of Hustler magazine. Rev. Falwell made several hundred thousand copies of the page and distributed them as part of a fund-raising effort. Important factors: Rev. Falwell's copying did not diminish the sales of the magazine (since it was already off the market) and would not adversely affect the marketability of back issues. (Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Moral Majority, Inc., 606 F. Supp. 1526 (C.D. Cal. 1985).)


Also, looking at the Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Frena case, as long as the actual PDFs or images of the pages do not apper on this forum, you cannot really sue and win against the OLF forum for the copyright infringement. If members start uploading images of the magazine to this site, that should be prohibited.


After saying all that, since now we know you could still buy the back issues, we should do that. Supporting luthier organizations is good for all of us in the long term.
Author:  Bill Moll [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:20 am ]
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     As I stated, no one wants to make a Federal case out of it, and certainly, no one wants to "sue" anybody.

     The only "grey area" is, how many times can you get away with making knowledgeble people who share their cherished information, feel like they've been taken advantage of, before they decide to stop imparting their knowledge, and let us all stew in the swamp of our own inexperience.

     I can tell you, first hand, how difficult it has been to get good, smart, and highly experienced people to get back involved in the educational aspect of our endeavors and, not to brag but, I'm pretty good friends with quite a few of them, and I can even occasionally get away with a little friendly "arm twisting" if it will help - it's still tough.

     Many fine builders have completely shunned the Forums - ASIA's included for that matter - because they percieve a kind of, anything goes, "wild west" attitude in the general on-line populace. Now, right or wrong, we've all seen examples of that, and in numerous places, and it has really become detrimental to the goals we all share in many instances.

     I don't want to preach or lecture. I simply want us all to show each other a level of respect and consideration, both personally and professionally.

     Bill

PS. Darn - I thought you guys had spell-check over here!

      
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:30 am ]
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[QUOTE=microsmurf] ... case, as long as the actual PDFs or images of the pages do not apper on this forum, you cannot really sue and win against the OLF forum for the copyright infringement. If members start uploading images of the magazine to this site, that should be prohibited.

[/QUOTE]

uhhh... ok, this is the first I have looked at this thread, but how did the OLF get dragged into this?

Folks I REITERATE you are on your own for your behavior. If you do something or say something that gets your tail in a crack it is not the responsibility of the OLF, me or Lance. We endorse nobodys comments but our own.

You need to pay special heed to this .... seriously.


With respect to this particular issue... I think we all need to do our part and be members of ASIA and GAL. The associations are very important to the craft. Also, if you can buy a back issue do it, but I also don't see anything bad about helping a neighbor out. You just have to use your best judgement.

Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:31 am ]
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[QUOTE=Bill Moll] And, it reflects on the policies of the OLF in general, that your moderators didn't consider that there might be a negative aspect to this, and ask that you refrain from it [/QUOTE]

Easy there big guy... point that stick at those who are offenders. I did not even see this thread until now.

Seriously...

Author:  Bill Moll [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:10 am ]
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Brock,

     No one is "pointing a stick" either, but you guys moderate all kinds of "issues" that develop here within OLFdom, and I believe there has to be, or at least should be, some responsibility on the part of anyone who provides a public fourm to keep an eye on things. That point not withstanding, the specific comment of mine was simply an attempt to illustrate that whatever happens in here reflects not merely on the "offender", if you want to call them that, but on the management, and on the Forum as a whole.

     If there was a move afoot to start copying a jig or fixture that was currently being sold by a major underwriter or sponsor, I'll bet there would be some administrative moderation of some sort... At least I would hope there would be, for the forum's own sake.

     Bill
Author:  John Mayes [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:00 pm ]
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I'm with Bill here on this. Maybe it's because I've ran into similar
situations, but, to me, the way I see it is that the people wanting this
article, if possible, would have bought the back issue therefore
supporting ASIA (which I need to renew my membership btw), and
someone making copies and sending them around is making it so that
that person is getting something they did not pay for, and now will not
have to pay for. That is taking money out of ASIA's pocket. Again as Bill
stated it's not a huge deal, but never the less $50 here and there make a
difference. If we are interested in the information that ASIA puts out then
we should step up and purchase the periodical. I have no doubt there is
no one here wanting to cause harm, and it may not be illegal
technically, but it seems to fly it the face of common courtesy. Again this
is just my opinion and I have no doubt there are others who
disagree....now off to go renew my membership.
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